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Sanchez

#21 User is offline   50 Cent 

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 18:09

Because his runner wasn't the danger when the space and the ball was and he had an opportunity to head the ball away first time.

Also, Rose shouldn't need to be tracking the runner. A defensive midfielder should be. We had three midfielders on the pitch and none of them tracked back.

In general, we have a lot of players who will lackadasically "do their job" or their isolated role, but none who will take leadership and responsibility and go the extra mile.

It is the difference between a good player and a great one. But it is all over the pitch. No pressure on the ball, no sense of danger.
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#22 User is online   willyid82 

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 20:55

Both centre halves were at fault and rose should have sensed the danger earlier regardless if it his man or not.

What I would say is that I thought moura and kanes closing down was poor all game
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#23 User is offline   fentonroad 

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 21:29

So what are people's thoughts on Sanchez? Barring miracles at least one of Jan and Toby will be gone next season. Based on that should we just pay them at all times or is it better for the long term development of Sanchez to play him as much as possible and rotate Jan and Toby?
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#24 User is offline   electricpace 

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 21:58

Sanchez is tipped to become one of the best CBs in the game ... he should be playing every game possible now ready for when the old legs of Jan and Toby to give give way .
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#25 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 22:55

View Post50 Cent, on 12 August 2019 - 18:09, said:

Because his runner wasn't the danger when the space and the ball was and he had an opportunity to head the ball away first time.

Also, Rose shouldn't need to be tracking the runner. A defensive midfielder should be. We had three midfielders on the pitch and none of them tracked back.

In general, we have a lot of players who will lackadasically "do their job" or their isolated role, but none who will take leadership and responsibility and go the extra mile.

It is the difference between a good player and a great one. But it is all over the pitch. No pressure on the ball, no sense of danger.


Sanchez got tight to his man, text book defending tbh, the ball cleared him and he didn't have a chance to head it. We were trying to close down higher up the pitch with Sissokho putting a challenge in on the guy who hit it long but not quite getting there. Toby to far over to the right and to high up ??? Was in no mans land when the ball went long. The guy who scored ran off the back of N'Dombele and maybe he should have been aware that Rose wasn't covering.

Villa had the ball in their own box, made a few passes with us trying to not let them out the corner before it went long. The passage of play that saw Villa gain possession is key, did Rose make a forward run ? Did he go forward with the ball ? And why was he not back covering ? Answer those questions and it will determine if he was at fault, or N'Dombele should have tracked his man. Either way, the four mentioned, Rose, N'Dombele, Sanchez and Toby saw only Sanchez doing his job to any measure. No way was Sanchez at fault, the guy hit a lucky long ball, even if the run off N'dombele was well timed.

I heard people in the ground around me blame Sanchez, hard to determine at the time, but watching it back, I'd clear his name. But I also don't share the morose attitude at our defending, we were trying to pin them in, something that later on saw us nick the ball and score twice from doing. You can't win them all, and sometimes a long ball gets the percentage result when it lands just right. Ask Grealish about fine lines, many applauding Villa, yet his dwelling on the ball lost them the game.
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#26 User is offline   50 Cent 

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Posted 12 August 2019 - 23:34

View PostYidio Yidio, on 12 August 2019 - 22:55, said:

Sanchez got tight to his man, text book defending tbh, the ball cleared him and he didn't have a chance to head it. We were trying to close down higher up the pitch with Sissokho putting a challenge in on the guy who hit it long but not quite getting there. Toby to far over to the right and to high up ??? Was in no mans land when the ball went long. The guy who scored ran off the back of N'Dombele and maybe he should have been aware that Rose wasn't covering.

Villa had the ball in their own box, made a few passes with us trying to not let them out the corner before it went long. The passage of play that saw Villa gain possession is key, did Rose make a forward run ? Did he go forward with the ball ? And why was he not back covering ? Answer those questions and it will determine if he was at fault, or N'Dombele should have tracked his man. Either way, the four mentioned, Rose, N'Dombele, Sanchez and Toby saw only Sanchez doing his job to any measure. No way was Sanchez at fault, the guy hit a lucky long ball, even if the run off N'dombele was well timed.

I heard people in the ground around me blame Sanchez, hard to determine at the time, but watching it back, I'd clear his name. But I also don't share the morose attitude at our defending, we were trying to pin them in, something that later on saw us nick the ball and score twice from doing. You can't win them all, and sometimes a long ball gets the percentage result when it lands just right. Ask Grealish about fine lines, many applauding Villa, yet his dwelling on the ball lost them the game.


These are all fair points, and yes they are fine lines, but the difference is I want us to go for the league and challenge City, not fight Aston Villa for relegation.

Grealish will learn but will Toby, Sanchez, Rose? Will Poch with his DM choice?

The bottom line is a long ball beat us and Liverpool and City defend better than us. We get done on the counter a lot, such as against Wolves and Burnley. It is vital considering an upgrade to close the gap imo.
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#27 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 00:43

View Post50 Cent, on 12 August 2019 - 23:34, said:

These are all fair points, and yes they are fine lines, but the difference is I want us to go for the league and challenge City, not fight Aston Villa for relegation.

Grealish will learn but will Toby, Sanchez, Rose? Will Poch with his DM choice?

The bottom line is a long ball beat us and Liverpool and City defend better than us. We get done on the counter a lot, such as against Wolves and Burnley. It is vital considering an upgrade to close the gap imo.


I don't really have any debate to offer with regards challenging City for the League title, it will take a lot of luck for that to happen this season. On our day we can compete, but over 38 games, we're just to far off tbh.

I've said it many times, Rose gets caught up field a lot, because he pushes on with less care than Davies, but it's what I'd expect against teams we dominate possession against. You can't cover every area of the pitch in those situations. I'm more concerned with our inability to score first in games, it's been going on to long and magnifies defensive flaws. Liverpool conceded against Norwich, less concerning when a team is home and dry at 4-0 before half time, yet someone will have been at fault for that goal most likely (haven't seen it).

Poch got the use of Eriksen 100% right, he's been poor in preseason and many moan that Poch picks his favourites regardless of form. Yet here we are with most complaining that Eriksen should have started and demanding he start next game. Surely that midfield will be better suited to playing away at City than home to Villa.
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#28 User is offline   50 Cent 

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 00:49

View PostYidio Yidio, on 13 August 2019 - 00:43, said:

I don't really have any debate to offer with regards challenging City for the League title, it will take a lot of luck for that to happen this season. On our day we can compete, but over 38 games, we're just to far off tbh.

I've said it many times, Rose gets caught up field a lot, because he pushes on with less care than Davies, but it's what I'd expect against teams we dominate possession against. You can't cover every area of the pitch in those situations. I'm more concerned with our inability to score first in games, it's been going on to long and magnifies defensive flaws. Liverpool conceded against Norwich, less concerning when a team is home and dry at 4-0 before half time, yet someone will have been at fault for that goal most likely (haven't seen it).

Poch got the use of Eriksen 100% right, he's been poor in preseason and many moan that Poch picks his favourites regardless of form. Yet here we are with most complaining that Eriksen should have started and demanding he start next game. Surely that midfield will be better suited to playing away at City than home to Villa.


We concede early in games. I would not be surprised if we were 1-0 down against City inside 10 minutes. The thing is, defence is the easier part of the game to master. People complain about a lack of creativity but if you are tight at the back then you don't have to be 4-0 up.

As for Poch's selection, he admits himself he got it wrong. I also don't feel Eriksen was the difference maker and neither does Poch. I do think the formation switch was.

It's a lazy and obvious argument to say Eriksen saved the game, the same as it is to saying he should start or be given the world to stay.
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#29 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 06:17

View Post50 Cent, on 13 August 2019 - 00:49, said:

We concede early in games. I would not be surprised if we were 1-0 down against City inside 10 minutes. The thing is, defence is the easier part of the game to master. People complain about a lack of creativity but if you are tight at the back then you don't have to be 4-0 up.

As for Poch's selection, he admits himself he got it wrong. I also don't feel Eriksen was the difference maker and neither does Poch. I do think the formation switch was.

It's a lazy and obvious argument to say Eriksen saved the game, the same as it is to saying he should start or be given the world to stay.


The problem with that is football has to be entertaining, I'm not a Mourinho fan because his teams are boring to watch in the most part. Certainly what Pep is getting out of City puts his Chelski achievements into perspective. Spending a lot of money on a defence minded team philosophy is short lived and dull.

Eriksen is the obvious creator in our squad and if Lo Celso can match his return we'll be very happy, but no player does it every time. However, Saturday's game is being misjudged, there was room out wide and KWP sat high and wide for most of the 1st half but received nothing in terms of a decent pass to allow him a run at their FB one on one. Villa were quick to double up so it needed to be a decent pass, the first pass slide in behind either FB was indeed executed by Eriksen once he came on, it's a lie to suggest Eriksen's introduction didn't create a spark and took Villa out of their fairly comfortable defending. It did coincide with more movement from Kane and Sissokho being the one popping up on our right with KWP sitting a little more deeper than he was.

Eriksen tested the keeper with a free kick also, that one can't be denied. It was the right call to bench Eriksen, and without Alli or Son that team almost picked itself. Also, it gave N'dombele more protection for his debut along with the rookie status of KWP. The slight injury to Vertonghen scuppered any thoughts of a 3 CB system also.

It's very easy to come on and make all the clever points after a game, and ignore the reasons in play before the kick off for team selection of system. As an example, Lamela looked good preseason, Eriksen didn't, couple that with the contract debacle and it's not a poor decision to have benched Eriksen, unless of course hindsight is in use. But, ultimately, bringing Eriksen on fresh against a newly promoted team not used to the pace and physical nature of Prem football (McGinn mentioned this after the game) might actually have been clever use of our state of the art sports science facilities, I'd like to think so. Also, it is rather amusing that we complain so much after an opening day 3-1 home win, when most will tell you it's the worse time to play a promoted side.

On the whole I'm quite satisfied with the result, not overly alarmed by our defending. But, I'm not comparing it to the big hitters over the weekend, City, United, Burnley and Brighton. :niceone:
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#30 User is offline   griff 

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 07:28

My concern about the City game is the spoiling tactics coached into the team by Pep. City have a lot of possession in games. Most teams only get anynchances by quick counter attacks. When other teams get a quick counter attack some city player commits a foul,not a serious foul, a booking worthy foul but a ‘clumsy’ foul and one which is just enough to disrupt the opponents breakaway moment. City have become the masters of it.
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#31 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 07:46

View Postgriff, on 13 August 2019 - 07:28, said:

My concern about the City game is the spoiling tactics coached into the team by Pep. City have a lot of possession in games. Most teams only get anynchances by quick counter attacks. When other teams get a quick counter attack some city player commits a foul,not a serious foul, a booking worthy foul but a ‘clumsy’ foul and one which is just enough to disrupt the opponents breakaway moment. City have become the masters of it.


They also have their new dutch signing for us to be concerned with Manny Pulate Der Var
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#32 User is offline   griff 

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 07:51

Noticed in yhe West Ham game, seconds before City got their second,the cameras panned onto the City subs war,Inn up at the other end of the pitch. Agieromwas ome of them and he was actually on the field of play. Wonder whether he was when the goal was scored? Does the VAR operator see exactly the same pictures that we see on Sky?
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#33 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 08:11

View Postgriff, on 13 August 2019 - 07:51, said:

Noticed in yhe West Ham game, seconds before City got their second,the cameras panned onto the City subs war,Inn up at the other end of the pitch. Agieromwas ome of them and he was actually on the field of play. Wonder whether he was when the goal was scored? Does the VAR operator see exactly the same pictures that we see on Sky?


City will benefit most from Var, purely because they attack more with more of the ball. It makes sitting back against them less of a good idea. To combat that we need to keep our back line out of the box and midfield need to track runners a lot whilst also creating a combative war zone in the middle of the pitch by tackling, tackling and more tackling. If a game needs to be approached as two separate halves with 2 entirely different plans, it's this one.

Tight as a ducks 1st half, narrow as you can. Let them have it in the wide channels. Then have a go 2nd half. Tom has mentioned man marking De Bryne with Sissko, but Mahrez and Silva need to be hit hard and early with tackles as well, and Sisskho is good at that.

I'd give someone else the job of marking De Bryne, Skipp maybe. Let our strong runners on the ball break through the centre and go with one up top with pace save Kane and Eriksen for 2nd half.

It won't happen though.
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#34 User is offline   tomtom 

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 10:28

View Postgriff, on 13 August 2019 - 07:28, said:

My concern about the City game is the spoiling tactics coached into the team by Pep. City have a lot of possession in games. Most teams only get anynchances by quick counter attacks. When other teams get a quick counter attack some city player commits a foul,not a serious foul, a booking worthy foul but a ‘clumsy’ foul and one which is just enough to disrupt the opponents breakaway moment. City have become the masters of it.


Yes. There's more and more discussion of this professional fouling, Pellegrini highlighting it is interesting. I read City have the highest fouls per opponent pass in the league, but because they always do it near their goal it rarely gets a yellow. Whereas in fact it stops any kind of break when their opposition finally gets some possession.
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#35 User is offline   50 Cent 

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Posted 13 August 2019 - 22:20

View PostYidio Yidio, on 13 August 2019 - 06:17, said:

The problem with that is football has to be entertaining, I'm not a Mourinho fan because his teams are boring to watch in the most part. Certainly what Pep is getting out of City puts his Chelski achievements into perspective. Spending a lot of money on a defence minded team philosophy is short lived and dull.

Eriksen is the obvious creator in our squad and if Lo Celso can match his return we'll be very happy, but no player does it every time. However, Saturday's game is being misjudged, there was room out wide and KWP sat high and wide for most of the 1st half but received nothing in terms of a decent pass to allow him a run at their FB one on one. Villa were quick to double up so it needed to be a decent pass, the first pass slide in behind either FB was indeed executed by Eriksen once he came on, it's a lie to suggest Eriksen's introduction didn't create a spark and took Villa out of their fairly comfortable defending. It did coincide with more movement from Kane and Sissokho being the one popping up on our right with KWP sitting a little more deeper than he was.

Eriksen tested the keeper with a free kick also, that one can't be denied. It was the right call to bench Eriksen, and without Alli or Son that team almost picked itself. Also, it gave N'dombele more protection for his debut along with the rookie status of KWP. The slight injury to Vertonghen scuppered any thoughts of a 3 CB system also.

It's very easy to come on and make all the clever points after a game, and ignore the reasons in play before the kick off for team selection of system. As an example, Lamela looked good preseason, Eriksen didn't, couple that with the contract debacle and it's not a poor decision to have benched Eriksen, unless of course hindsight is in use. But, ultimately, bringing Eriksen on fresh against a newly promoted team not used to the pace and physical nature of Prem football (McGinn mentioned this after the game) might actually have been clever use of our state of the art sports science facilities, I'd like to think so. Also, it is rather amusing that we complain so much after an opening day 3-1 home win, when most will tell you it's the worse time to play a promoted side.

On the whole I'm quite satisfied with the result, not overly alarmed by our defending. But, I'm not comparing it to the big hitters over the weekend, City, United, Burnley and Brighton. :niceone:


I think you're right regarding the creative player needing to play in the full backs. The problem I have is that, we "shouldn't" be relying on Eriksen as our only option to expose that avenue.

I know we do, but I am saying it is strategically wrong to do that. I feel Pochettino knows this but for some reason hasn't got a plan b working successfully. I also feel he is capable of doing so, and has proved it in the past, with or without Eriksen.

As for football supposed to be entertaining, I agree for the most part. What I will say though, is given the choice, we have had entertainment more than success so I am willing to sacrifice entertainment given our current squad for a few seasons if it means short-term success.

If it can be done another way then fair enough. But I don't feel a midfield three of Winks, Sissoko, and N'Dombele beats a Liverpool midfield three. I think there has to be a part of the manager that recognises limitations and adapts.

As for beating Villa 3-1, it could have gone a lot worse.

And as for the discussion on City fouling higher up the pitch, it's not a bad game plan. Although, when we do it, Kane goes right through Delph and you are left asking why Harry, why... :grinny:
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