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Brexit ! May is betraying our sovereignty

#1 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 15 December 2018 - 15:11

Not being patronising but hopefully you guys know what is going on here.

The deal the eu are proposing with the backstop in ireland gives them total power over the uk until they decide otherwise.

Theresa may is so weak and happy to go ahead with this biggest sell out of the countries sovereignty.

Luckily enough a majority of our mps are on the ball and refusing to pass this deal may has accepted from the eu.

None the less may will badger our mps into accepting this rubbish deal and in my opinion its all to appease businesses in the uk who cant or wont accept the transition to deal within the world trade organisation.

If giving up control of our sovereign nation to the eu through the irish backstop is acceptable to you then fine.

If not then email your local mp to keep rejecting theresa mays sell out.

Theresa May voted remain and is carrying this out via her power as prime minister.

Why is she rejecting the NO DEAL option ?

The Eu have said they wont negotiate any further and wont clarify their proposals on the back stop.

They want £39 bill of tax payers money and control over what the uk does business wise and macron has already said he will use his power to keep french fishing vessels plundering fish stocks in uk waters.
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#2 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 17 December 2018 - 05:51

Doesnt look like any of you blokes are very interested in what is going on with brexit ! but i would suppose lots find it boring which is a shame because the outcome of it all is very important to the future of the uk.

My personal view has changed slightly regarding may as i believe the eu are making things so difficult for her and her mps to agree on that you can only conclude the eu wont let us leave easily ! and that is their full intention.

Old remainer has been prime ministers and politicians are coming out the woodwork and all of them are in favour of remain. (wonder what business interests they have in europe) ?

They are siding with the eu and in the days of henry the 8th would have executed for treason.

Anyway ! so May has either to announce soon "NO DEAL" or call another referendum ! or retract article 50 and remain in the eu which would be appalling for the democratic vote this country made on june 23rd 2016.

Giving the eu £13 billion each year is a disgrace and is used to prop up bankrupt countries like greece.
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Posted 19 December 2018 - 13:15

Im sick of it and dissapointed i voted out, out should mean out, there was nothinmg on my ballot paper that out with a deal. today leading torys say they vwill resign, and even vote agaist government if may tries to do no deal brexit. that is what us leavers voted for, so all thos so called brexiters in government then are liars, because they will nolt support a no deal, and thats what leavec is.
OUT MEANS OUT, WHAT PART OF THAT CANT THEY UNDERSTAND. f*** THE EU IM BRITISH NOT EUROPEAN. :angry: angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

i f***ing fought for this country, i never wanted to see us ruled by unelected tosspots, especially that p!ss head junker, and f*** the french as well, old macron cant even run/control his own country, yet wants to tell us what to do. my view on brexit is ALL THE EU CAN GO f*** THEMSELVES THEY NEED US MORE THAN WE NEED THEM.
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#4 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 19 December 2018 - 16:21

View Postjourneyman, on 19 December 2018 - 13:15, said:

Im sick of it and dissapointed i voted out, out should mean out, there was nothinmg on my ballot paper that out with a deal. today leading torys say they vwill resign, and even vote agaist government if may tries to do no deal brexit. that is what us leavers voted for, so all thos so called brexiters in government then are liars, because they will nolt support a no deal, and thats what leavec is.
OUT MEANS OUT, WHAT PART OF THAT CANT THEY UNDERSTAND. f*** THE EU IM BRITISH NOT EUROPEAN. :angry: angry: :angry: :angry: :angry:

i f***ing fought for this country, i never wanted to see us ruled by unelected tosspots, especially that p!ss head junker, and f*** the french as well, old macron cant even run/control his own country, yet wants to tell us what to do. my view on brexit is ALL THE EU CAN GO f*** THEMSELVES THEY NEED US MORE THAN WE NEED THEM.


Its a total disgrace that our own people are making so much trouble on behalf of the eu.

Theresa Mays deal is rubbish we all know that and its been concocted by the eu in order to maintain payments to them and keep control over us until they choose otherwise.

But thats the deal they gave her take it or leave it and with verbal assurances the backstop is only temporary!

If the backstop is only temporary then why wont they get it written down as legally binding ?

But what i find distasteful is that people and businesses are blaming the government over the no deal scenario when its all down to the eu making unrealistic demands and using the irish backstop as a lever to keep us in and probably to continue gaining access to the uk,s fishing waters.

Today business associations were stating they were horrified at the no deal scenario which has given them no time to prepare ?

They have had 30 months to prepare and if they have chosen to ignore the intransigence of the eu that has been prevalent over the years then it is their fault.
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#5 User is offline   stokesie 

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 03:25

Iím fortunate enough I donít have to hear it for the next few months as Iím in Oz . Get back on the first of March so I guess it will be complete carnage by then.

I voted out . I didnít vote for any deal , that was my understanding . My brexit was the WTO one . Bollox to businesses.,

When the result came out I didnít expect it to implemented. Iím surprised we have gotten this far . The bias bbc propaganda machine , itv, sky news have been a complete disgrace the way they have covered it .

I hate the Eu and everything it stands for . If someone could go back in time and show people in 1975 what the Eu has turned into , they will be horrified and would have never voted to join .

We have already been shafted . I voted for free movement to end . Itís already going to carry on for at least 7 years . Complete joke .

Next 15 years will be our first Islamic political party , thatís when the fun and games start . The country has had it . Our capital is a s***hole. Civil unrest will happen in the next 30 years . It will be huge . It will be in every city . It will make these Paris riots look like a vicars tea party .
British Christian people will be seeking asylum in Eastern Europe more than likely and major parts of the uk will be under sharia law .
One thing these liberal , left wing nut jobs can never say , and that is that they were never warned .
Someone is behind all of this . Trying to erode our western culture in Europe .
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#6 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 22 December 2018 - 10:35

View Poststokesie, on 22 December 2018 - 03:25, said:

Iím fortunate enough I donít have to hear it for the next few months as Iím in Oz . Get back on the first of March so I guess it will be complete carnage by then.

I voted out . I didnít vote for any deal , that was my understanding . My brexit was the WTO one . Bollox to businesses.,

When the result came out I didnít expect it to implemented. Iím surprised we have gotten this far . The bias bbc propaganda machine , itv, sky news have been a complete disgrace the way they have covered it .

I hate the Eu and everything it stands for . If someone could go back in time and show people in 1975 what the Eu has turned into , they will be horrified and would have never voted to join .

We have already been shafted . I voted for free movement to end . Itís already going to carry on for at least 7 years . Complete joke .

Next 15 years will be our first Islamic political party , thatís when the fun and games start . The country has had it . Our capital is a s***hole. Civil unrest will happen in the next 30 years . It will be huge . It will be in every city . It will make these Paris riots look like a vicars tea party .
British Christian people will be seeking asylum in Eastern Europe more than likely and major parts of the uk will be under sharia law .
One thing these liberal , left wing nut jobs can never say , and that is that they were never warned .
Someone is behind all of this . Trying to erode our western culture in Europe .


Have to agree with everything you have posted here stokesie.
When we first joined the old common market it was to trade with them ! not being told what to do by them.
The negotiations have been done the wrong way round because we should just leave ! pay up our membership to march 29th 2019 and then say to the eu " we are here to trade with if you want to " " if you dont want to then thats fine too "

Further they could have been told all eu country fishing vessels dont have access to our waters after the leave date.

What has happened is 2 leave brexit secretarys have resigned leaving a remain prime minister in charge who is frightened of standing up to brussels and is happy to concede sovereignty of our country to them in exchange for trade deals where we spend more with them than do with us on a ratio of 60 % to 40%.
We dont have to give them £39 bill but they see us as mugs, the irish backstop is a load of b******s designed to keep us in the customs union until they decide otherwise and now they are starting on gibralter because they see it as part of bargaining for what they want.

Thatcher wouldnt have put up with this cr@p and trump would have f***ed them off ages ago.

The only people making noises now are remainers : farage should be doing more to sell his vision but even he has copped out.
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#7 User is offline   stokesie 

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 03:25

Please tell me what I have read is not true . The government surely hasnít signed up to the UN migration pact ??
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#8 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 24 December 2018 - 06:00

View Poststokesie, on 24 December 2018 - 03:25, said:

Please tell me what I have read is not true . The government surely hasn’t signed up to the UN migration pact ??


Yes it virtually makes it a basic human right to be able to migrate.

You can be jailed if you oppose migration verbally.

Why has may signed up to it ??????????? why is she trying to get an agreement through that basically allows the eu to tell us when we can or cant leave the customs union?

Stokesie google "uk will stay in customs union without a fishing deal says macron"

I dont put links up anymore since my pc security shot up a warning on the screen.

Effectively if mays deal with the eu go,s through it ties us into the customs union forever or until the eu say we can leave it.
The objective is to then to allow us to leave the customs union in exchange for continued access to uk waters for all eu fishing vessels.
Thats why i tell everyone i can not to just dismiss brexit as boring and going on and on and lets just get it done and over with.
The british are famous for their apathy : selling the uk,s fishing industry is disgusting and may should be ashamed of herself.
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#9 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 13:56

20 tory remainer rebels like Dominic Grieve & Anna Soubry voted along with labour mps to deny the "NO DEAL" option when dealing with intransigent EU leaders like Junckter and Tusk .
As they like to side with labour whose mission is to bring down the government then i would suggest voting labour in the next election to get these self opinionated mps out from representing the british electorate.
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#10 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 15:59

My advice would be to hold your nerve until the 11th hour, our negotiation position will be stronger closer to the deadline in March. With mainland Europe showing increasing levels of unrest.
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#11 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 17:02

View PostYidio Yidio, on 11 January 2019 - 15:59, said:

My advice would be to hold your nerve until the 11th hour, our negotiation position will be stronger closer to the deadline in March. With mainland Europe showing increasing levels of unrest.


Its been weakened yidio : the no deal option has been stifled by grieve and co .These rebel mps have done the eu,s dirty work for them.

Mays withdrawal deal is rubbish because of the backstop but the climb down from the eu which could have happened is now dead in the water because of 20 tory remain rebels siding with labour mps who seek to be in power.
Thats why i say vote labour in the next electrion and get people like soubry and grieve out from their seats.
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#12 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 19:07

To me, these so called rebel Tory MPs are true heroes. I voted to remain and was upset when leave won.

I would like nothing better to debate the reasons why I did, and why I feel that leaving the EU is a monumental folly, but fear that there are too many posters on here that would just use the opportunity to start a verbal fight.

We have all been sold down the river by self-serving multi-millionaires who just want to get richer on the back of the rest of us. I don't blame those that fell under the spell of these spivs, it just makes it harder to accept that they have hoodwinked many honest people.

Of all those who champion Brexit - particularly a hard one - not one has come up with any sensible plans on how such a thing would actually work without harming the vast majority of the country. None of them will suffer, they've made sure of that. Charlatans, the whole lot of them. It is they who are the true enemies of this country.
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#13 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 19:46

I'll explain why I voted to leave and how I reached that decision.

I was open minded once the debates started prior to the referendum, although I did already have concerns over immigration and globalisation. I can't stand Amazon and companies that squeeze the life out of independent traders.

I feel that larger companies benefit from immigration more than most, a constant stream of cheaper labour props up their wide at the bottom thin at the top salary structures and the bottom gets wider whilst the top gets higher. Agricultural work needs a constant top up of people, because it's hard work and anyone coming to this country worth their salt won't just stay in that particular job. Anyone that isn't much good seems to go back home, so the vacancies are very regular and it's just quick fix after quick fix. I'm fully aware that the NHS would collapse without people from overseas, but many nurses coming from many countries from outside the EU, so that doesn't really apply. I've been accused of Racism for my opinion on immigration, but that just comes out of a remainers phrase book so matters not.


I equally have an issue with being told I was gullible and naÔve to vote to leave the EU, the "It's not your fault, you were lied to" is arrogant and condescending with very little thought behind it. We're lied to every time we vote.


I also voted to leave because we were becoming entrenched within EU laws and knew it would be very difficult to leave the longer we stay in, that's proving the case, with blackmail being evident during negotiations to further strengthen my desire to leave.


Now that we've almost reached the end of the timescale set by MP's and MEP's to leave, noises of 2nd referendums etc will get louder, but the fundamental basis of democracy is at risk and the implications of ignoring a democratic vote are being ignored. The whole issue of people not having a voice or being listened to is once again underlined by the ignorance of all political parties and political amateurs that continue to seek out a loophole where a 52/48 majority can be over turned
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#14 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 20:04

That's a measured and calm reply Yidio, thank you.

Rather than cover everything in one post I'll break it down.

NUMBER ONE: THE VOTE

The question was terribly worded, a binary choice of 'Do you want to leave the EU' or 'Do you want to stay in the EU'. No thought given to what sort of leave was being voted for. The 'Leave means leave' sound bite is a bit like saying 'cheese means cheese'. They come in all sorts and not everybody who likes cheddar can stomach Stilton. This may appear flippant but it is important. That is why there should be a people's vote on HOW we leave at the very least.

The vote was ADVISORY. There s no legal requirement to honour the referendum. Cameron said he would abide by the result. This was a schoolboy error.

There should have been a stated minimum requirement for the vote to be considered won. This would have made sure that there would not be this divisive crack in our population. 52-48 might be a win, but for such an important vote it is too close. There should have been a 60-40, or at a push a 55-45 imposed winning line. This is adopted widely around the world in referendum.

Over four million valid voters were denied a vote. They included British nationals living abroad and EU/foreign nationals living in the UK (the vast majority who pay tax and have made Britain their home.)

The 2015 Scottish Independence vote was defeated on the understanding that the UK would remain in the EU. This was the overriding reason why Scotland voted to remain in the UK. Westminster promised them that.
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#15 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 20:25

NUMBER TWO: THE CAMPAIGN

Leave.EU and Vote Leave, the two campaigns that were behind the push to convince the public to vote to leave the EU both broke electoral law in multiple ways. Overspending was the least of it.

Politicians such as Johnson and Gove knowingly lied to further their own political careers. Both were (and still are) remainers. The likes of Leadsom,, Fox, Rees-Mogg, Davis etc also promised to deliver thing that they knew were undeliverable and incorrect. The most famous of which was the 'We send the EU £350 million a week - let's fund our NHS instead. Almost none of them had a clue as to what Brexit meant.

The popular press (Sun, Mail and, yes, the BBC) printed propaganda that was reminiscent of 1930s Germany -poisonous, divisive and, more importantly, based on lies and misinformation. This lead to business leaders, company directors, industry decision makers, small business owners all being discredited when caution was raised over leaving. It was called 'Project fear'. Time has shown that it was anything but. This also lead to a rise in Xenophobia and a rise of the hard right, coming to a tragic head with the murder of MP Jo Cox. All linked.

I could go on, but you get the idea...
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#16 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 20:27

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 11 January 2019 - 20:04, said:

That's a measured and calm reply Yidio, thank you.

Rather than cover everything in one post I'll break it down.

NUMBER ONE: THE VOTE

The question was terribly worded, a binary choice of 'Do you want to leave the EU' or 'Do you want to stay in the EU'. No thought given to what sort of leave was being voted for. The 'Leave means leave' sound bite is a bit like saying 'cheese means cheese'. They come in all sorts and not everybody who likes cheddar can stomach Stilton. This may appear flippant but it is important. That is why there should be a people's vote on HOW we leave at the very least.

The vote was ADVISORY. There s no legal requirement to honour the referendum. Cameron said he would abide by the result. This was a schoolboy error.

There should have been a stated minimum requirement for the vote to be considered won. This would have made sure that there would not be this divisive crack in our population. 52-48 might be a win, but for such an important vote it is too close. There should have been a 60-40, or at a push a 55-45 imposed winning line. This is adopted widely around the world in referendum.

Over four million valid voters were denied a vote. They included British nationals living abroad and EU/foreign nationals living in the UK (the vast majority who pay tax and have made Britain their home.)

The 2015 Scottish Independence vote was defeated on the understanding that the UK would remain in the EU. This was the overriding reason why Scotland voted to remain in the UK. Westminster promised them that.



Fair points, but hindsight is needed for all of this. I'm sure these issues would not be of concern had the majority been to remain 52/48. If promises were made to Scotland on the outcome of a referendum then it's the making of those promises at fault. What can we say, "they were lied to" as most are prior to going to the polls.


I have an issue with British nationals not choosing to take up citizenship of the countries they reside in, they inevitably come back when ill health raises it's ugly head, it's a loophole that needs to be addressed, so if they are refused a vote because they've been out of the country for over a set period of time, that's fair enough IMO.


The rules of the referendum cannot be changed after the event, surely you can understand this, if they were wrong it further underlines the arrogance involved. They clearly didn't expect so many to vote out, something Camerons resignation confirmed almost immediately. Many said he should never have allowed such an important issue go to the people to vote on. Again, this is the attitude that people voted against.


The People of Scotland voted in the last GE and that was an indication that they did not want a 2nd referendum on independence, which would grant them the chance of EU membership. Clearly they want to be part of Britain and the EU. But that isn't on offer and should not have been promised.
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#17 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 20:37

View PostYidio Yidio, on 11 January 2019 - 20:27, said:

Fair points, but hindsight is needed for all of this. I'm sure these issues would not be of concern had the majority been to remain 52/48. If promises were made to Scotland on the outcome of a referendum then it's the making of those promises at fault. What can we say, "they were lied to" as most are prior to going to the polls.


I have an issue with British nationals not choosing to take up citizenship of the countries they reside in, they inevitably come back when ill health raises it's ugly head, it's a loophole that needs to be addressed, so if they are refused a vote because they've been out of the country for over a set period of time, that's fair enough IMO.


The rules of the referendum cannot be changed after the event, surely you can understand this, if they were wrong it further underlines the arrogance involved. They clearly didn't expect so many to vote out, something Camerons resignation confirmed almost immediately. Many said he should never have allowed such an important issue go to the people to vote on. Again, this is the attitude that people voted against.


The People of Scotland voted in the last GE and that was an indication that they did not want a 2nd referendum on independence, which would grant them the chance of EU membership. Clearly they want to be part of Britain and the EU. But that isn't on offer and should not have been promised.


You make some very good points here, which have been commented on since the vote:

Cameron gambled on shutting up the Eurosceptics in his party by giving them the referendum under the assumption that they would never win it.

A large swathe of the country were fed up with him and the Tories and used the referendum as a protest vote against them.

Immigration largely took over the campaign and many voted as a protest about incoming migrants rather than EU nationals (leaving the EU does nothing to reduce the intake of non-Eu migrants)

Many political chancers jumped on the Leave bandwagon because they saw it as a career move, believing that Leave would never win, but in the aftermath they would have additional power by currying favour with the Eurosceptics (Johnson is the prime example here)
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#18 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 20:38

I missed the advisory bit,

That's the loophole they seem to be running with. It makes a mockery of the whole issue if the referendum was only an advisory referendum. Again, this is the sort of thing that further distances the average man on the street. At no point prior to the referendum were the majority of people going to the polls knowing it was only an advisory vote.

Trying to pull the wool over the eyes of a majority isn't really doing anyone any good. It's a technicality at best, and at it's worse it's taking the rise out of a nation.
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#19 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 20:52

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 11 January 2019 - 20:37, said:

You make some very good points here, which have been commented on since the vote:

Cameron gambled on shutting up the Eurosceptics in his party by giving them the referendum under the assumption that they would never win it.

A large swathe of the country were fed up with him and the Tories and used the referendum as a protest vote against them.

Immigration largely took over the campaign and many voted as a protest about incoming migrants rather than EU nationals (leaving the EU does nothing to reduce the intake of non-Eu migrants)

Many political chancers jumped on the Leave bandwagon because they saw it as a career move, believing that Leave would never win, but in the aftermath they would have additional power by currying favour with the Eurosceptics (Johnson is the prime example here)



I have to disagree that it was entirely a tory vote wishing to leave, some labour strongholds voted out. I agree that a lot of people were and still are confusing immigration issues. Recently a remainer on question time had to have the difference between immigrant and asylum seeker explained to him. But he wasn't a politician, he was a rap artist.


Cameron did gamble, he was a remainer, his arrogance won't be defended by me. But, as I said, claiming the people should not be allowed the referendum also doesn't sit well with me.


I agree that many vote without the full understanding of the issues, but that cannot be contributed solely to the referendum. Every vote is the same, it isn't something that only happens on a referendum vote over EU membership.


I do not defend politicians, there are chancers in every corner. If the integrity of politicians or the intelligence of the electorate are reasons to ignore the results of a referendum, then where do we go next. It all descends into chaos.
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#20 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 21:15

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 11 January 2019 - 20:25, said:

NUMBER TWO: THE CAMPAIGN

Leave.EU and Vote Leave, the two campaigns that were behind the push to convince the public to vote to leave the EU both broke electoral law in multiple ways. Overspending was the least of it.

Politicians such as Johnson and Gove knowingly lied to further their own political careers. Both were (and still are) remainers. The likes of Leadsom,, Fox, Rees-Mogg, Davis etc also promised to deliver thing that they knew were undeliverable and incorrect. The most famous of which was the 'We send the EU £350 million a week - let's fund our NHS instead. Almost none of them had a clue as to what Brexit meant.

The popular press (Sun, Mail and, yes, the BBC) printed propaganda that was reminiscent of 1930s Germany -poisonous, divisive and, more importantly, based on lies and misinformation. This lead to business leaders, company directors, industry decision makers, small business owners all being discredited when caution was raised over leaving. It was called 'Project fear'. Time has shown that it was anything but. This also lead to a rise in Xenophobia and a rise of the hard right, coming to a tragic head with the murder of MP Jo Cox. All linked.

I could go on, but you get the idea...



Missed this, the money spending is always a concern. I do however remember the flyer posted through my door. For me It was useless, just a series of quotes from so called influential people. Richard Branson "It would be very bad to leave the EU" that was it, no reasons, just rhetorical phrases. Once again I find the assumption that this would win my vote nothing more than insulting, the remain campaign may well have lost through it's arrogance and continued belittling of the electorate. Constantly the claim was/is that people are to thick to make this decision. They didn't campaign well at all. As I said, I purposely opened my mind as a floating voter, basically to see where it took me.


I won't be drawn into commenting on the Murder of anyone, that's nothing to do with my own political opinions.
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