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Brexit ! May is betraying our sovereignty

#41 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 14:54

View PostChrisPienaar, on 14 January 2019 - 14:29, said:

Spare a moment to think of us in Gibraltar. We have been royally shafted by this whole Brexit debacle. We have been forced to leave the EU with the UK even though we had something like a 95% remain vote and now we are some bargaining chip to be used by Spain, the EU and the UK. The big problem is that we relied on the EU a lot and we probably won't get the backing we need from the UK either. We are only 30,000 people so when it comes down to it if Spain says they want something to do with Gibraltar or no deal (or worse deal) then the UK will probably take it.

I can see why a lot of you are frustrated with the EU because there are a lot of negatives but there are also loads of positives that have come from it. I'm not going to start a debate on the positives and negatives or the history of the EU, just that it is neither perfect nor is it all doom and gloom. It might have been an idea to sound out if other countries were interested in dissolving the EU or whatever but its one h*ll of a leap of faith to be the first and possibly only ones to leave. We will see how this pans out short and long term but the near future is a scary place full of uncertainty at the moment.



I am not a supporter of mays deal at all ! in fact it is absolute rubbish and i think spain has used some of it veto power to shaft you guys.

The eu is a corrupt organisation that we didnt join all those years ago ! we joined the common market to trade with them ! not to take on their laws and have our courts decisions overruled by the european court of justice.

What i am annoyed at is tory rebels trying to negate our negotiating position of a no deal which i think we need in these negotiations.

Our own people have weakened our bargaining status .

Now the eu know we must have a deal they will be ruthless and this is what remainers havent considered but i guess the peoples vote of 2016 doesnt mean much to these selfish self seeking (we know best) minority...==== Minority because they lost the vote and wont accept it.
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#42 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 15:01

By the way the eu continues to punish the uk for daring to want to leave their corrupt club.

Subsidies / aid for the uk via the eu since the 2016 referendum result has been cut by 20 %.

This is our fisheries and farming etc etc.

While french and german aid has been increased by the same amount.

Uk tax payers hard earned money has gone into aiding foreign interests.

Laughable.

.............and people want to stay in this club ?
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#43 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 15:48

View PostChrisPienaar, on 14 January 2019 - 14:29, said:

Spare a moment to think of us in Gibraltar. We have been royally shafted by this whole Brexit debacle. We have been forced to leave the EU with the UK even though we had something like a 95% remain vote and now we are some bargaining chip to be used by Spain, the EU and the UK. The big problem is that we relied on the EU a lot and we probably won't get the backing we need from the UK either. We are only 30,000 people so when it comes down to it if Spain says they want something to do with Gibraltar or no deal (or worse deal) then the UK will probably take it.

I can see why a lot of you are frustrated with the EU because there are a lot of negatives but there are also loads of positives that have come from it. I'm not going to start a debate on the positives and negatives or the history of the EU, just that it is neither perfect nor is it all doom and gloom. It might have been an idea to sound out if other countries were interested in dissolving the EU or whatever but its one h*ll of a leap of faith to be the first and possibly only ones to leave. We will see how this pans out short and long term but the near future is a scary place full of uncertainty at the moment.


Chris, believe me, I am sparing more than a moment of thought for all UK and EU citizens who find themselves either in Gib, NI or resident on 'the wrong side of the fence'. To me the world order has changed and to be part of an imperfect EU is better than standing alone in a world that is, quite frankly, an alarming place. Beagle mentioned the winning of two world wars earlier - wars that cost hundreds of thousands of British lives. But we fought alongside many European brothers and sisters in both of them, and they too paid the price. We did not win either war through bulldog spirit alone, but with the help of other nations. Part of the positive nature of the EU is to keep the peace in Europe (Balkan conflict apart). With instability in the US and a confident Russia and China, the U.K. standing alone (whether that be trade or moral support) is not a sensible option.

This nationalistic stance for why Brexit is a good thing - to, in effect, give Britain back to the British - is flawed. Most of the white English come from Denmark and Germany, those further north have Scandanavian roots, with the West Country sprinkled with Celtic blood from along the western seaboard of mainland Europe. We might be an island, but we are genetically populated from mainland Europe.
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#44 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 15:49

View PostBroadway Beagle, on 14 January 2019 - 15:01, said:

By the way the eu continues to punish the uk for daring to want to leave their corrupt club.

Subsidies / aid for the uk via the eu since the 2016 referendum result has been cut by 20 %.

This is our fisheries and farming etc etc.

While french and german aid has been increased by the same amount.

Uk tax payers hard earned money has gone into aiding foreign interests.

Laughable.

.............and people want to stay in this club ?


Beagle, please don't take this the wrong way, but many of the facts and figures that you are stating are incorrect. If you are purely using The Daily Mail and The Sun for your info then you are being fed inaccuracies. There are plenty of independent news outlets to get unbiased reporting on all things Brexit.
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#45 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 16:38

This is from the 'New Satesman' regarding our annual payment into the EU

Throughout the EU referendum campaign, the constant chatter was about how much our membership costs the UK (itís not £350m a week, but enough red buses and red tops said it was to make it seep into our consciousness).

What didnít receive so much air time was how much money we get from the European Union. Because it really does pay for a lot of our stuff. Britain commits £18bn to the EU budget every year. Of this amount, London receives a rebate of £5bn, and £6bn goes to the rest of the UK for EU-funded projects (funding that can be matched by private investment) and farm subsidies.

There are EU spending projects (often called ďstructural fundsĒ) for vital areas, including farming, science, and culture. Key examples are the EU farming subsidies, which account for 50 per cent of British farm incomes (roughly £2.5-3bn a year, depending on the exchange rate), and development projects in poorer areas Ė such as Cornwall, west Wales, and parts of the northeast Ė which receive an outsized amount of EU funding
.
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#46 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 16:47

Beagle, have a look/read/watch Channel Four, Guardian, Independent and Al Jazeera. Just give them a go to see what a balanced reporting of the situation is like. I'm not expecting it to change your mind, but these outlets have no hidden agenda as far as I know.
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#47 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 17:36

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 14 January 2019 - 16:47, said:

Beagle, have a look/read/watch Channel Four, Guardian, Independent and Al Jazeera. Just give them a go to see what a balanced reporting of the situation is like. I'm not expecting it to change your mind, but these outlets have no hidden agenda as far as I know.


No problems armchair ! i do look at various sources everyday regarding brexit.

Some are for and against ! as you mention the sun,mail,express advocate brexit.

Honestly i do read every available article but have to admit i dont read anything from al jazeera for no particular reason.

I think with me the bottom line is i distrust barnier because he originally said (and i saw the interview) that the british are about to learn what brexit is all about.

They (the EU) have made it such a traumatic experience to leave that it becomes distasteful.

Macron has stated later negotiations (if this may rubbish deal gets through) will involve the french and other nations having continued access to the uks rich fishing waters.
The spanish will use a veto if they cant get their way on gibraltar.

The list goes on but finally they refuse to make promises on paper that they wont hold the uk to ransom over the irish problem.

Its also unacceptable that in mays agreement the eu decides when we can leave.

If they have nothing to hide then why make all these proviso,s.?

Regarding the 20 tory rebels siding with labour ! to me a "NO DEAL" is a negotiating lever with the eu and they have sought to take it out of the equation.

Only 2 of these rebels constituentcies voted in favour of remain ! the rest were all in favour of leaving so they are not representing what their constituents voted for ! i sincerely hope they will be bombed out their seats in the next general election.

Have to ask why do you think we have to ignore the referendum result ?
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#48 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 18:01

It's quite simple why the EU are playing hard ball.

It is us that want to leave. It's like we are giving notice to a gym that we are leaving, but still want access to the swimming pool and treadmills. The gym will say no. As will the EU at our demands. The EU also want to look after their members interests, so if they give the UK concessions then our payback will be things like giving the EU fishing rights - that only makes sense. Plus, they don't want the first country to leave the EU to walk away with all kinds of goodies, otherwise any other country thinking about it will go for it as well. Again, the EU are making sure that anyone that leaves them leaves with what they came in with - little or nothing.

May's deal is awful. No deal Brexit even worse. This is why you have disorder and unprecedented manoevering within parliament.

If you voted for a pat on the back, but were then told that you were going to receive a punch in the face, you'd want a rethink. This is why many who voted to leave want to change their minds. I know you are not one of them, but a considerable number do.
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#49 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 18:19

I'm not sure that a claim about Al Jazhera not having an agenda is any different to a claim that the BBC have one. Certainly been accused of bias in the past.


The fact that those claims of bias have been somewhat appeased suggests they may well have existed in the first place,
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#50 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 18:24

Sorry Beagle, you asked me why I think it OK to ignore the referendum result. This won't be popular with you, but here goes...

Both of the Leave campaigns broke electoral law and are still under investigation.

The politicians who were the front men/women of the leave campaign knowingly lied with most having a vested interest in us leaving - a mixture of disaster capitalists, currency exchange chancers or career boosting movers.

We are better off as a business nation within the EU. This is backed up by the CBI, Bank of England, most industry leaders and almost every small business owner you talk to.

To maintain health, safety and environmental laws (the main leaver mouthpieces were promising a bonfire of red tape in these areas)

To keep JIT (just in time) movements as they are, without which thousands of businesses will go under.

To keep our medical supply line open and safe.

To keep investment in education and research flowing.

A united Europe is a stronger and safer gang to be in then the UK ally themselves to the USA

WTO (World Trade Organisation) is like the National League compared to the Champions League of trade deals that we have with the EU.

They are for starters...

Can you now let me know what will be so good about leaving, particularly a no deal scenario?
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#51 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 18:29

View PostYidio Yidio, on 14 January 2019 - 18:19, said:

I'm not sure that a claim about Al Jazhera not having an agenda is any different to a claim that the BBC have one. Certainly been accused of bias in the past.


The fact that those claims of bias have been somewhat appeased suggests they may well have existed in the first place,


The BBC certainly have pro-Brexit journos (Kuensberg, Marr, Neil) and give scant coverage on certain 'remainer' subjects. I've almost stopped watching the BBC News because of it.

Peston on ITV And the Channel Four news team far more objective.

Al Jazeera is well trusted for impartiality across the globe.

American broadsheet coverage also thorough and objective on Brexit
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#52 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 18:59

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 14 January 2019 - 18:29, said:

The BBC certainly have pro-Brexit journos (Kuensberg, Marr, Neil) and give scant coverage on certain 'remainer' subjects. I've almost stopped watching the BBC News because of it.

Peston on ITV And the Channel Four news team far more objective.

Al Jazeera is well trusted for impartiality across the globe.

American broadsheet coverage also thorough and objective on Brexit



BBC news or the BBC in general ? Because their entertainment programs ram remain down our throats.
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#53 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 20:25

View PostYidio Yidio, on 14 January 2019 - 18:59, said:

BBC news or the BBC in general ? Because their entertainment programs ram remain down our throats.


I was referring to BBC news. What entertainment programmes did you find 'remainer'?
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#54 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 21:30

The fireworks on New Years Eve
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#55 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 04:18

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 14 January 2019 - 18:24, said:

Sorry Beagle, you asked me why I think it OK to ignore the referendum result. This won't be popular with you, but here goes...

Both of the Leave campaigns broke electoral law and are still under investigation.

The politicians who were the front men/women of the leave campaign knowingly lied with most having a vested interest in us leaving - a mixture of disaster capitalists, currency exchange chancers or career boosting movers.

We are better off as a business nation within the EU. This is backed up by the CBI, Bank of England, most industry leaders and almost every small business owner you talk to.

To maintain health, safety and environmental laws (the main leaver mouthpieces were promising a bonfire of red tape in these areas)

To keep JIT (just in time) movements as they are, without which thousands of businesses will go under.

To keep our medical supply line open and safe.

To keep investment in education and research flowing.

A united Europe is a stronger and safer gang to be in then the UK ally themselves to the USA

WTO (World Trade Organisation) is like the National League compared to the Champions League of trade deals that we have with the EU.

They are for starters...

Can you now let me know what will be so good about leaving, particularly a no deal scenario?


Hello Armchair ! let me start by having a good laugh at the 20 rebel tory mps who sided with labour last week to try to grab control of brexit.
Corbyn has stated as soon as mays deal is voted down he intends to claim "No Confidence " in the government.

Could it be the 20 will soon get their just rewards ? talk about imploding and causing the downfall of their own government ! absolute bonkers.....Remain mps who are ignoring the vote 2016 result.

Crackpot Soubry and self seeking dominic grieve have certainly put me off of ever wanting them in power again.

Now parliament with cable and co, soubry & grieve ! an overall remainder majority on on the verge of grabbing control of brexit.............! i think thats a tragedy!

Mays deal is cr@p but its all she could get off from barnier and co.

Anyway ! without sounding like our pm ! brexit gives back control of our borders and laws and most importantly migration.

Do you ever watch Benefits Britain ? we are an abused nation when it comes to foreigners coming into this country going straight on benefits.

Our nhs is universally abused by people who have never paid into the system.

But the main reason i personally want out from the eu is because they have insidiously evolved into what they are today from the original common market. (1970s version)

We joined to trade with them not to take on their rules and regulations or have our courts decisions overruled by the european court of justice.

Another reason is that i am british ! not european.....!

There is a trade deficit between us and eu countries in their favour so its madness that they want to make it as hard as possible for us to leave without a deal.


A prominent german politician (i will try and pull the article up for you to see later) said the problem of brexit could easily be resolved if the british were given back control of their own borders ! thats the most sensible thing i have heard coming out from an eu country since we voted leave.

Its that easy ! but obviously its not good enough for barnier,junckter and the rest of the eu gang.

As for leaving but having our cake and eating it ! they get £39 bill in exchange for this ! isnt exactly peanuts is it?

But to answer your question why i think no deal is ok !

Simply we did ok without them before we joined the common market ! i was approx 20 when we joined but in all the years before the people of britain didnt go short on medical supplies / food etc etc.

Businesses were just fine in those days ! now we have grown reliant on europe some are too scared to change the status quo.

I am not opposed to maintaining trade relations with them at all but its them who are making it difficult.

With the eu the no deal option is important in negotiations because they need us for trade as much as we need them.

Thats it really ! oh yeah just to say the usa have always been our allies ! i would rather them then the despicable french who hate our guts.
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#56 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 04:56

To be honest armchair i really dont know why both my wife and myself get frustrated by what is happening because at my age of nearly 65 it isnt going to make much difference to us.

Plus there is a stitch up going on! brexit wont happen in my opinion.

Calls for the so called peoples vote is a load of rubbish because the first peoples vote (called the referendum) isnt being accepted by remain die hard,s.

If the leave campaign broke some rules and protocol then so what really ? people do what they want to do in my opinion ! i dont think it made any difference.

Young labour voters cheated in the last general election by voting more than once negating a tory landslide ! labour used social media and fake stuff in their campaign. (no one mentions this much these days) but that old chestnut leave cheated is brought up often by remainers.

In my view this will be a wasted opportunity to exit a corrupt club run by bureaucrats who live a wonderful life.

To say i am disillusioned by the unfairness of it all is an understatement.

I will end on the subject by saying there are factions that wont accept this stitch up of brexit by mps and other sources.

There will be trouble in this country over this for years to come.

What will be unleashed will be the making of grieve, soubry ,boles and co.
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#57 User is offline   ChrisPienaar 

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 09:42

Why do you think that the corrupt EU people are going to be any better/worse than the corrupt UK people. Do you really think that leaving the EU is going to create a more prosperous UK? Do you not think that leaving the EU will weaken the UK's stance in negotiations with other countries? The world is a very different place to what it was 50 years ago or even 20 years ago. The EU gave us strength in numbers against not only the rest of the world but against eachother within the EU. Corrupt people exist in every aspect of life, just look at FIFA. I haven't seen anyone ask to leave FIFA and that corruption was unearthed and shown for all the world to see. Just because there are a few flaws doesn't mean you reject the whole thing. You need to weigh up the benefits against the drawbacks of leaving the EU and the benefits win surely. As you are all saying the EU is making it very difficult for the UK to leave and of course they bloody are. They don't want anyone else to leave the EU because it will be the end of the EU. The UK has made itself an example now and the EU (quite rightly) wants to put others off from doing the same.

It is insane to think that we can leave the EU and enjoy all of the benefits that we had before. Of course they are going to give us a deal that benefits them more than us, we have little to offer in terms of threats. And to leave without a deal at all would be a disaster.

Whatever happens, the UK is going to suffer because the country is practically split down the middle. I'm all for democracy and I think you can all see just how hard Brexit has been to negotiate, but attempts are being made at making sure it is done properly. The question is that, now, when everything is on the table and we see what deal we are getting, do we just take it even if it's s***? Just to make sure Brexit goes through or do we reconsider? I don't think the vote has been ignored because Brexit is being planned and carried out. The thing is do we carry it out even if it will be bad for the UK?
I mean there was a second vote on Theresa May? She was voted in and you would've thought that vote was final, but she was doubted and so had to go through another vote. Now looking like a third vote might happen? Surely when more information is added and the picture becomes clearer we can reconsider what were doing and not go head on because of stubbornness.

I don't think another vote would be anti-democracy but rather an update after many things have come to light. A second vote could result in leave being chosen again anyway so its not clear-cut at all that a second vote will change our minds.

This is a decision that will have a huge effect on the future of the UK, for the next 3,5,10,20+ years. It is not something that should be taken lightly and it is frustrating when people just bang on saying Brexit means Brexit, come on lets just leave already. I sometimes think that some people realize how huge this really is? (On both sides)

This isn't an attack on anyone on this thread by the way, just my two cents.
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#58 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 10:05

There are loads of reasons to get out from the eu and all i am doing is reiterating what i have put already so i am not going to repeat myself.

I havent a clue if the uk will be more prosperous outside the eu ! i also havent a clue if uk people are more corrupt than their eu counterparts.

I dont really think its relevant but what i will say is if the uk leaving the eu could lead to the end of the eu (as you claim) then they should have thought of that when cameron went to try and get a better deal for us back when he was in power.

You also asked me do we accept theresa mays deal ? NO ! its rubbish and keeps us under eu rule if they desire ! but it doesnt mean all the remainers in parliament should take over brexit because we know where that will end up.

(Thats a Dominic (frenchie) Grieve, Crackpot Nutter Soubry, Bercow (Bully Boy) stitch up)

Your other main point was the eu making it really difficult to leave without a decent deal ? well it takes 2 to tango and 2 to trade ! with a trade deficit ratio of 60% - 40% in their favour then i would say it would pay the eu not to be so intransigent.....! we buy more from them than they buy from us so why be such morons in the negotiations? plus £39 bill to leave the club ? well they can give that to greece and romania cant they ?

Main reason for me is that the modern day version of the eu has taken over our courts, laws, rules and regulations.....! we joined the old common market to enjoy trade with them ! not to be ruled over by them.

They redistribute members contributions to where they decide fit : leaving member states picking up the pieces of bankrupt countries like greece who join only for the financial benefits.

We are a small island and have no control over migration ! more green belt is being lost for new homes ! we are being abused by this power called the eu that we have no control over ! thats why we voted to get control back.

Finally people like barnier and macron have shown themselves in their true light.

Barnier wants to teach us a lesson. Macron wants to use brexit to maintain french fishing boats coming to our waters....! the spanish want gibraltar !

My personal opinion is brexit wont happen but this betrayal of the peoples democratic vote of 2016 will erupt with violence country wide.

Parliament has an overriding majority of remainers and bercow has abused his position in aiding them in trying to take over control of brexit.

Most of these mps come from constituency,s where the leave vote won ! they are letting down the very people that voted them in.

If thats democracy then they can shove it where it hurts.

Mine is only my 2 cents worth also.
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#59 User is offline   ChrisPienaar 

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 12:12

You make some good points but you are making it an us against them thing when the uk is in the eu and gets a say on eu laws. Itís not as if the eu is a countryless organisation. It is made up of people from all the countries in it. You speak about failing democracy but the eu is a democracy which you donít want to be part of. I guess I just donít get it.

What I do agree with you is that the vote should stand. For my sake I have to be selfish and say I hope it doesnít happen but it would be ridiculous if it didnít happen.
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#60 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 15 January 2019 - 12:14

The vote today is really nothing much to do with theresa may.

Its what the eu want to give the uk on leaving.

We give them £39 bill and still we have to wait for their decision when we can actually leave.
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