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For those that voted for brexit and democracy Tory rebel betrayal

#1 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 13:56

20 tory remainer rebels like Dominic Grieve & Anna Soubry voted along with labour mps to deny the "NO DEAL" option when dealing with intransigent EU leaders like Junckter and Tusk .
As they like to side with labour whose mission is to bring down the government then i would suggest voting labour in the next election to get these self opinionated mps out from representing the british electorate.
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#2 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 15:59

My advice would be to hold your nerve until the 11th hour, our negotiation position will be stronger closer to the deadline in March. With mainland Europe showing increasing levels of unrest.
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Posted 11 January 2019 - 17:02

View PostYidio Yidio, on 11 January 2019 - 15:59, said:

My advice would be to hold your nerve until the 11th hour, our negotiation position will be stronger closer to the deadline in March. With mainland Europe showing increasing levels of unrest.


Its been weakened yidio : the no deal option has been stifled by grieve and co .These rebel mps have done the eu,s dirty work for them.

Mays withdrawal deal is rubbish because of the backstop but the climb down from the eu which could have happened is now dead in the water because of 20 tory remain rebels siding with labour mps who seek to be in power.
Thats why i say vote labour in the next electrion and get people like soubry and grieve out from their seats.
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#4 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 19:07

To me, these so called rebel Tory MPs are true heroes. I voted to remain and was upset when leave won.

I would like nothing better to debate the reasons why I did, and why I feel that leaving the EU is a monumental folly, but fear that there are too many posters on here that would just use the opportunity to start a verbal fight.

We have all been sold down the river by self-serving multi-millionaires who just want to get richer on the back of the rest of us. I don't blame those that fell under the spell of these spivs, it just makes it harder to accept that they have hoodwinked many honest people.

Of all those who champion Brexit - particularly a hard one - not one has come up with any sensible plans on how such a thing would actually work without harming the vast majority of the country. None of them will suffer, they've made sure of that. Charlatans, the whole lot of them. It is they who are the true enemies of this country.
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#5 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 19:46

I'll explain why I voted to leave and how I reached that decision.

I was open minded once the debates started prior to the referendum, although I did already have concerns over immigration and globalisation. I can't stand Amazon and companies that squeeze the life out of independent traders.

I feel that larger companies benefit from immigration more than most, a constant stream of cheaper labour props up their wide at the bottom thin at the top salary structures and the bottom gets wider whilst the top gets higher. Agricultural work needs a constant top up of people, because it's hard work and anyone coming to this country worth their salt won't just stay in that particular job. Anyone that isn't much good seems to go back home, so the vacancies are very regular and it's just quick fix after quick fix. I'm fully aware that the NHS would collapse without people from overseas, but many nurses coming from many countries from outside the EU, so that doesn't really apply. I've been accused of Racism for my opinion on immigration, but that just comes out of a remainers phrase book so matters not.


I equally have an issue with being told I was gullible and nave to vote to leave the EU, the "It's not your fault, you were lied to" is arrogant and condescending with very little thought behind it. We're lied to every time we vote.


I also voted to leave because we were becoming entrenched within EU laws and knew it would be very difficult to leave the longer we stay in, that's proving the case, with blackmail being evident during negotiations to further strengthen my desire to leave.


Now that we've almost reached the end of the timescale set by MP's and MEP's to leave, noises of 2nd referendums etc will get louder, but the fundamental basis of democracy is at risk and the implications of ignoring a democratic vote are being ignored. The whole issue of people not having a voice or being listened to is once again underlined by the ignorance of all political parties and political amateurs that continue to seek out a loophole where a 52/48 majority can be over turned
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#6 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 20:04

That's a measured and calm reply Yidio, thank you.

Rather than cover everything in one post I'll break it down.

NUMBER ONE: THE VOTE

The question was terribly worded, a binary choice of 'Do you want to leave the EU' or 'Do you want to stay in the EU'. No thought given to what sort of leave was being voted for. The 'Leave means leave' sound bite is a bit like saying 'cheese means cheese'. They come in all sorts and not everybody who likes cheddar can stomach Stilton. This may appear flippant but it is important. That is why there should be a people's vote on HOW we leave at the very least.

The vote was ADVISORY. There s no legal requirement to honour the referendum. Cameron said he would abide by the result. This was a schoolboy error.

There should have been a stated minimum requirement for the vote to be considered won. This would have made sure that there would not be this divisive crack in our population. 52-48 might be a win, but for such an important vote it is too close. There should have been a 60-40, or at a push a 55-45 imposed winning line. This is adopted widely around the world in referendum.

Over four million valid voters were denied a vote. They included British nationals living abroad and EU/foreign nationals living in the UK (the vast majority who pay tax and have made Britain their home.)

The 2015 Scottish Independence vote was defeated on the understanding that the UK would remain in the EU. This was the overriding reason why Scotland voted to remain in the UK. Westminster promised them that.
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#7 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 20:25

NUMBER TWO: THE CAMPAIGN

Leave.EU and Vote Leave, the two campaigns that were behind the push to convince the public to vote to leave the EU both broke electoral law in multiple ways. Overspending was the least of it.

Politicians such as Johnson and Gove knowingly lied to further their own political careers. Both were (and still are) remainers. The likes of Leadsom,, Fox, Rees-Mogg, Davis etc also promised to deliver thing that they knew were undeliverable and incorrect. The most famous of which was the 'We send the EU £350 million a week - let's fund our NHS instead. Almost none of them had a clue as to what Brexit meant.

The popular press (Sun, Mail and, yes, the BBC) printed propaganda that was reminiscent of 1930s Germany -poisonous, divisive and, more importantly, based on lies and misinformation. This lead to business leaders, company directors, industry decision makers, small business owners all being discredited when caution was raised over leaving. It was called 'Project fear'. Time has shown that it was anything but. This also lead to a rise in Xenophobia and a rise of the hard right, coming to a tragic head with the murder of MP Jo Cox. All linked.

I could go on, but you get the idea...
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#8 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 20:27

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 11 January 2019 - 20:04, said:

That's a measured and calm reply Yidio, thank you.

Rather than cover everything in one post I'll break it down.

NUMBER ONE: THE VOTE

The question was terribly worded, a binary choice of 'Do you want to leave the EU' or 'Do you want to stay in the EU'. No thought given to what sort of leave was being voted for. The 'Leave means leave' sound bite is a bit like saying 'cheese means cheese'. They come in all sorts and not everybody who likes cheddar can stomach Stilton. This may appear flippant but it is important. That is why there should be a people's vote on HOW we leave at the very least.

The vote was ADVISORY. There s no legal requirement to honour the referendum. Cameron said he would abide by the result. This was a schoolboy error.

There should have been a stated minimum requirement for the vote to be considered won. This would have made sure that there would not be this divisive crack in our population. 52-48 might be a win, but for such an important vote it is too close. There should have been a 60-40, or at a push a 55-45 imposed winning line. This is adopted widely around the world in referendum.

Over four million valid voters were denied a vote. They included British nationals living abroad and EU/foreign nationals living in the UK (the vast majority who pay tax and have made Britain their home.)

The 2015 Scottish Independence vote was defeated on the understanding that the UK would remain in the EU. This was the overriding reason why Scotland voted to remain in the UK. Westminster promised them that.



Fair points, but hindsight is needed for all of this. I'm sure these issues would not be of concern had the majority been to remain 52/48. If promises were made to Scotland on the outcome of a referendum then it's the making of those promises at fault. What can we say, "they were lied to" as most are prior to going to the polls.


I have an issue with British nationals not choosing to take up citizenship of the countries they reside in, they inevitably come back when ill health raises it's ugly head, it's a loophole that needs to be addressed, so if they are refused a vote because they've been out of the country for over a set period of time, that's fair enough IMO.


The rules of the referendum cannot be changed after the event, surely you can understand this, if they were wrong it further underlines the arrogance involved. They clearly didn't expect so many to vote out, something Camerons resignation confirmed almost immediately. Many said he should never have allowed such an important issue go to the people to vote on. Again, this is the attitude that people voted against.


The People of Scotland voted in the last GE and that was an indication that they did not want a 2nd referendum on independence, which would grant them the chance of EU membership. Clearly they want to be part of Britain and the EU. But that isn't on offer and should not have been promised.
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#9 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 20:37

View PostYidio Yidio, on 11 January 2019 - 20:27, said:

Fair points, but hindsight is needed for all of this. I'm sure these issues would not be of concern had the majority been to remain 52/48. If promises were made to Scotland on the outcome of a referendum then it's the making of those promises at fault. What can we say, "they were lied to" as most are prior to going to the polls.


I have an issue with British nationals not choosing to take up citizenship of the countries they reside in, they inevitably come back when ill health raises it's ugly head, it's a loophole that needs to be addressed, so if they are refused a vote because they've been out of the country for over a set period of time, that's fair enough IMO.


The rules of the referendum cannot be changed after the event, surely you can understand this, if they were wrong it further underlines the arrogance involved. They clearly didn't expect so many to vote out, something Camerons resignation confirmed almost immediately. Many said he should never have allowed such an important issue go to the people to vote on. Again, this is the attitude that people voted against.


The People of Scotland voted in the last GE and that was an indication that they did not want a 2nd referendum on independence, which would grant them the chance of EU membership. Clearly they want to be part of Britain and the EU. But that isn't on offer and should not have been promised.


You make some very good points here, which have been commented on since the vote:

Cameron gambled on shutting up the Eurosceptics in his party by giving them the referendum under the assumption that they would never win it.

A large swathe of the country were fed up with him and the Tories and used the referendum as a protest vote against them.

Immigration largely took over the campaign and many voted as a protest about incoming migrants rather than EU nationals (leaving the EU does nothing to reduce the intake of non-Eu migrants)

Many political chancers jumped on the Leave bandwagon because they saw it as a career move, believing that Leave would never win, but in the aftermath they would have additional power by currying favour with the Eurosceptics (Johnson is the prime example here)
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#10 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 20:38

I missed the advisory bit,

That's the loophole they seem to be running with. It makes a mockery of the whole issue if the referendum was only an advisory referendum. Again, this is the sort of thing that further distances the average man on the street. At no point prior to the referendum were the majority of people going to the polls knowing it was only an advisory vote.

Trying to pull the wool over the eyes of a majority isn't really doing anyone any good. It's a technicality at best, and at it's worse it's taking the rise out of a nation.
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#11 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 20:52

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 11 January 2019 - 20:37, said:

You make some very good points here, which have been commented on since the vote:

Cameron gambled on shutting up the Eurosceptics in his party by giving them the referendum under the assumption that they would never win it.

A large swathe of the country were fed up with him and the Tories and used the referendum as a protest vote against them.

Immigration largely took over the campaign and many voted as a protest about incoming migrants rather than EU nationals (leaving the EU does nothing to reduce the intake of non-Eu migrants)

Many political chancers jumped on the Leave bandwagon because they saw it as a career move, believing that Leave would never win, but in the aftermath they would have additional power by currying favour with the Eurosceptics (Johnson is the prime example here)



I have to disagree that it was entirely a tory vote wishing to leave, some labour strongholds voted out. I agree that a lot of people were and still are confusing immigration issues. Recently a remainer on question time had to have the difference between immigrant and asylum seeker explained to him. But he wasn't a politician, he was a rap artist.


Cameron did gamble, he was a remainer, his arrogance won't be defended by me. But, as I said, claiming the people should not be allowed the referendum also doesn't sit well with me.


I agree that many vote without the full understanding of the issues, but that cannot be contributed solely to the referendum. Every vote is the same, it isn't something that only happens on a referendum vote over EU membership.


I do not defend politicians, there are chancers in every corner. If the integrity of politicians or the intelligence of the electorate are reasons to ignore the results of a referendum, then where do we go next. It all descends into chaos.
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#12 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 21:15

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 11 January 2019 - 20:25, said:

NUMBER TWO: THE CAMPAIGN

Leave.EU and Vote Leave, the two campaigns that were behind the push to convince the public to vote to leave the EU both broke electoral law in multiple ways. Overspending was the least of it.

Politicians such as Johnson and Gove knowingly lied to further their own political careers. Both were (and still are) remainers. The likes of Leadsom,, Fox, Rees-Mogg, Davis etc also promised to deliver thing that they knew were undeliverable and incorrect. The most famous of which was the 'We send the EU 350 million a week - let's fund our NHS instead. Almost none of them had a clue as to what Brexit meant.

The popular press (Sun, Mail and, yes, the BBC) printed propaganda that was reminiscent of 1930s Germany -poisonous, divisive and, more importantly, based on lies and misinformation. This lead to business leaders, company directors, industry decision makers, small business owners all being discredited when caution was raised over leaving. It was called 'Project fear'. Time has shown that it was anything but. This also lead to a rise in Xenophobia and a rise of the hard right, coming to a tragic head with the murder of MP Jo Cox. All linked.

I could go on, but you get the idea...



Missed this, the money spending is always a concern. I do however remember the flyer posted through my door. For me It was useless, just a series of quotes from so called influential people. Richard Branson "It would be very bad to leave the EU" that was it, no reasons, just rhetorical phrases. Once again I find the assumption that this would win my vote nothing more than insulting, the remain campaign may well have lost through it's arrogance and continued belittling of the electorate. Constantly the claim was/is that people are to thick to make this decision. They didn't campaign well at all. As I said, I purposely opened my mind as a floating voter, basically to see where it took me.


I won't be drawn into commenting on the Murder of anyone, that's nothing to do with my own political opinions.
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#13 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 21:49

Good debate Yidio. Thanks.
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#14 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 11 January 2019 - 21:52

You're welcome. :niceone:
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#15 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 05:55

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 11 January 2019 - 19:07, said:

To me, these so called rebel Tory MPs are true heroes. I voted to remain and was upset when leave won.

I would like nothing better to debate the reasons why I did, and why I feel that leaving the EU is a monumental folly, but fear that there are too many posters on here that would just use the opportunity to start a verbal fight.

We have all been sold down the river by self-serving multi-millionaires who just want to get richer on the back of the rest of us. I don't blame those that fell under the spell of these spivs, it just makes it harder to accept that they have hoodwinked many honest people.

Of all those who champion Brexit - particularly a hard one - not one has come up with any sensible plans on how such a thing would actually work without harming the vast majority of the country. None of them will suffer, they've made sure of that. Charlatans, the whole lot of them. It is they who are the true enemies of this country.


Hello Armchair ! it was good to see the debate between you and yidio and i was sorry i couldnt have joined in at the same time but i had to go out.
There is no need to get into a verbal fight at all because we voted differently.

To explain why i voted leave.

Firstly we joined the old common market to trade with europe ! not to be told what to do by them! the original common market was completely different in that day and age then the present one in its EU form.
Our courts are having their decisions overuled by the european court of justice and that in my opinion is not what we joined for.

Our fishing industry has been virtually dismantled and the dutch,french,spanish etc etc have uncharted access to our rich fishing grounds ! thats unacceptable.

We are told by the eu,s non elected leaders how many migrants we should take every year and we are a tiny island......! it gets ridiculous because as the population grows we need more and more roads ! more and more green belt is used to build new homes and we are gradually concreting over whole counties.
Finally cameron went to the eu to get a better deal and they gave him nothing of much consequence and so he called the referendum whose result (can i add) should be adhered to as it was democratic.

What i would like to say is i did know what i was voting for when i voted leave and its insulting by remainers who fail to accept the result of the referendum.

When grieve,fallon .clarke,soubry & co get up and speak a screen should flash up their business interests in europe ! are you aware grieve is part french ?

I have a market stall and meet loads of people and back in 2016 when the referendum was called i knew we would vote leave.

From what they were saying and their own personal opinions of the eu the mood wasnt good ! but of course they didnt know what they were doing.

If only remainers would accept the democratic vote of the people in june 2016 then we could get on with leaving.

We were an independent island when i was born and werent in the common market until i was 20 and we seemed to cope ok without being part of europe then so why should it be any different now ?

To end ! the eu have shown themselves in their true light during the 2 years of negotiations ! wouldnt it have been easier to accept the £39 billion divorce bill and continue good relations and trading with them which would have been good for europe and the uk ? but no they have sought to keep us locked into their rules and regulations and used any chinks in the uk armour ie (the irish backstop problem) to do this.

By the way ! We pay approx £13 bill per year into the eu so giving them £39 bill divorce settlement equates to 3 years membership after we left ! this wasnt good enough for the eu though.

Countries like greece and romania joined for the financial benefits they could get from richer nations.

The spanish are using brexit negotiations to further their claims on gibralter.

These are the sort of people we are dealing with and thats why i voted leave and would do so again.
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#16 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 06:07

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 11 January 2019 - 19:07, said:



We have all been sold down the river by self-serving multi-millionaires who just want to get richer on the back of the rest of us. I don't blame those that fell under the spell of these spivs, it just makes it harder to accept that they have hoodwinked many honest people.




Who are all these millionaires armchair ? maybe name some names.

You are sort of saying people who voted leave were so stupid and influenced by these characters ? no one influenced me at all !

I want the uk to take back control of its own sovereign borders and not be ruled by a foreign power.

BTW the billionaire richard branson apparently has poured millions into the remainer cause !!!!! along with quite a few others who have business interests in europe.
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#17 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 07:31

Ok Yidio and Armchair.
Thanks for contributing to this thread.

Going to end by saying i dont think brexit will happen ! it has too many powerful factors getting involved now with even bercow abusing his position in parliament to halt it.

The eu have been terribly difficult to deal with but of course everyone blames theresa may and not those un-elected buffoons.

There has been a sort of conspiracy theory knocking around my area for a while now that the whole thing will end in a stitch up of the democratic vote.

Some are saying the eu have given us such a rotten deal that will obviously be thrown out in tuesdays vote in the hope that remainers will take over and keep us in.

What Grieve and co have done sort of confirms this as 3 days for may to get another plan together is a bit ridiculous ! if not parliament takes over and we all know how that will end.

The danger of this is that there are far right extremists that wont swallow this violation of what was a fair vote very easily and if the country is split now then god knows what might happen in the future.

I wouldnt want to be in the shoes of grieve,letwin,soubry,fallon, boles and co.

Thanks once again lads.
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#18 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 13:29

View PostBroadway Beagle, on 12 January 2019 - 06:07, said:

You are sort of saying people who voted leave were so stupid and influenced by these characters ? no one influenced me at all !


Where on earth have I suggested that people who voted leave were stupid?
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#19 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 13:55

Lets not make it personnel lads,

The point being made is that many remainers have used the stance that to vote leave is stupid. Quickly backed up by the buzz line that I mentioned in my initial post about it not being the individuals fault because they were lied to.

The bottom line is that Europe is not looking so great for many reasons, and leaving is somewhat a leap of faith.

This post has been edited by Yidio Yidio: 12 January 2019 - 13:56

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#20 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 15:46

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 11 January 2019 - 19:07, said:


We have all been sold down the river by self-serving multi-millionaires who just want to get richer on the back of the rest of us. I don't blame those that fell under the spell of these spivs, it just makes it harder to accept that they have hoodwinked many honest people.



I have not been hoodwinked by anyone ! my vote was of my own decision ! and by the way my wife is a legal secretary and often says to me that "the eu never presents its books for accountancy"..................? maybe that should be investigated ?

Where are all these billions going paid in by the UK, Germany ,Sweden, France Etc. ?

They are a corrupt organisation that constantly re situates its headquarters in various countries at a massive cost.

We want to trade with them after brexit which would appease all remainers but you guys dont get it that they are making it impossible because they want us to stay and keep paying them untold billions.

We can leave and still trade with them but it is them that is making it so difficult.

The irish backstop is their guarantee that they will continue to get billions from the uk.

Barnier hinted this and macron wants continued french rights to fishing access in uk waters.

These people are toxic and some of us are aware of that fact and some arent.
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