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For those that voted for brexit and democracy Tory rebel betrayal

#21 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 15:49

View PostYidio Yidio, on 12 January 2019 - 13:55, said:

Lets not make it personnel lads,

The point being made is that many remainers have used the stance that to vote leave is stupid. Quickly backed up by the buzz line that I mentioned in my initial post about it not being the individuals fault because they were lied to.

The bottom line is that Europe is not looking so great for many reasons, and leaving is somewhat a leap of faith.


Spot on yidio and armchair asked for reasonable debate and i think all of us have delivered on that .
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#22 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 16:00

View PostBroadway Beagle, on 12 January 2019 - 15:46, said:

We want to trade with them after brexit which would appease all remainers but you guys dont get it that they are making it impossible because they want us to stay and keep paying them untold billions.

These people are toxic and some of us are aware of that fact and some aren't


'You guys don't get it..."

"Some of us are aware of the fact and some are not..."

I'm out of this thread now.
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#23 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 12 January 2019 - 16:08

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 12 January 2019 - 16:00, said:

'You guys don't get it..."

"Some of us are aware of the fact and some are not..."

I'm out of this thread now.


OMG!!!!!!!

Remainers can voice an opinion that people who voted leave didnt know what they were doing . That to me is an insult.

But you get insulted by the above.

Those remarks werent even made directly at you armchair ! it was at remainderdom as a whole.

You should get out of your armchair a bit more often.
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#24 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 07:13

Ok thanks yidio for your input into this subject because i really think the british public are fed up with it all and are now getting apathetic regarding brexit.

We sort of agree and voted leave even if for slightly different reasons.

I am a bit confused with armchair because no one got personal in the posts and he seems to have read something into my input as offensive ?

What i dont understand is why the government and theresa may are getting it in the neck big time when its the eu that are using every dirty trick in the book to keep us in their corrupt club.

If brexit is taken out the governments hands what better deal do mps expect to get when junckter has said "negotiations are closed " ?

We might even get a 2nd referendum ? if leave win that vote will it finally silence the remainers or will they keep on whinging we dont know what we are voting for ?
The problem all along has been certain mps (who represent the people of this country) deciding what is best for us and doing all they can to block what was a democratic vote by the people of the uk.

Personally i dont trust any of them anymore.
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#25 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 20:42

I didn't think that you had made any personal comments Beagle, I just felt that the thread was going to end up that way if continued. I picked out those quotes because they suggested a "we're right and you're wrong" approach. It goes without saying that we both think each other have made the wrong choice, but there are ways of presenting our thoughts without it becoming judgemental. I hope that we can both agree that each side of the divide is causing the other a lot of anger and frustration.
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#26 User is offline   tomtom 

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 21:17

I'm not going to weigh in on this as I know people are passionate and it's a very divisive issue, and I've spoken about it at length in my real life with dozens of people. Just stopped by to say well done for keeping it civil so far!

It's honestly one of the most complex situations of my lifetime and it's no wonder everyone you speak to has a different opinion.

One thing we can all agree on though is that it's so far been handled poorly. I hope whatever the eventual resolution that it's a positive one for as many Brits as possible.

I suspect Brexit will happen but it will be delayed past March, there's too much work that hasn't been completed by civil servants & etc.
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#27 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 13 January 2019 - 22:02

Thanks Tom, appreciated.
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#28 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 04:51

View Posttomtom, on 13 January 2019 - 21:17, said:

I'm not going to weigh in on this as I know people are passionate and it's a very divisive issue, and I've spoken about it at length in my real life with dozens of people. Just stopped by to say well done for keeping it civil so far!

It's honestly one of the most complex situations of my lifetime and it's no wonder everyone you speak to has a different opinion.

One thing we can all agree on though is that it's so far been handled poorly. I hope whatever the eventual resolution that it's a positive one for as many Brits as possible.

I suspect Brexit will happen but it will be delayed past March, there's too much work that hasn't been completed by civil servants & etc.



Thanks tom.

I dont think it will happen ! bercow has abused his position and allowed these amendments to go through ! i dont know if people realise what a major result that is for the eu.

You need every weapon in your armoury when in negotiations with the eu and the "no deal" option has been virtually taken out from the equation by our own people.

Experts say the eu usually wont concede until the very last moments ! had we retained the no deal option its possible they would have relented on the irish problem.....! they wont now.

Bercow should be removed from his job because his view is meant to be impartial but it so obviously isnt.

Brexit has been handled so badly because of the eu,s inflexibility ! first barnier mentioned a divorce sum of £80 bill before negotiations can begin ! now its the irish problem that they are using to keep control of the uk.

Why cant they give written assurances that they wont use the backstop as a means of keeping the uk tied to the eu ?

Its cr@p that this deal states the uk can only leave when the eu says so ? what is all that about ?

Then you have corbyn using it as a means of bringing down the government.

The problem is that too many factors are working against it and winning and that is very dangerous.

For me i would like to see the 20 rebel tory mps lose their seats in the next election as a reward for their treachery......! these idiots are working against and helping toward the downfall of their own party.
At the end of the day all mps should be carrying out and working toward the result of the referendum.

We voted leave and if the eu remains intransigent by its demands for future trading between the uk and them, then so be it.

We should have just left and then negotiated with them afterwards! now we are involved in all this rubbish.

£39 bill isnt enough for them ! they still want control of the uk and will use every trick in the book to do so.

We won 2 world wars and were in control of our own destiny ! what 2 world wars couldnt achieve has been thrown away ! we are now tied to a foreign power that overrules our courts and tells us what we can or cannot do.

Margaret Thatcher would have dealt these people and wouldnt have been done up like a kipper in negotiations like may has.

2 brexit secretarys quitting during negotiations says it all.
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#29 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 05:12

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 13 January 2019 - 20:42, said:

I didn't think that you had made any personal comments Beagle, I just felt that the thread was going to end up that way if continued. I picked out those quotes because they suggested a "we're right and you're wrong" approach. It goes without saying that we both think each other have made the wrong choice, but there are ways of presenting our thoughts without it becoming judgemental. I hope that we can both agree that each side of the divide is causing the other a lot of anger and frustration.



Thanks for explaining armchair ! i must admit i went away a bit confused ! i read over and over what i had written and couldnt see anything personally aimed at you.

I think you will find that i am a changed person these days and will just end contributing to a thread if someone starts to get personal remarks in.

My rucking days are over and my policy now is to think about things before responding to anything that comes across as personally derogatory to myself.

Thanks for the debate armchair and i do appreciate other views on brexit.....!
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#30 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 07:16

Just to finish my bit on brexit by asking a question that often comes into my mind..............!

How would remainers feel if they had won the 2016 referendum vote and leavers kept banging on about a second referendum because they didnt like the result of the first one? or that remainers didnt know what they were doing ?

Also if there was a second referendum and leave won would that be enough to shut up big mouth crackpot remainers like soubry ?

BTW : The 2016 referendum cost the british taxpayer £129 mill ! its out of order to keep banging on for a second one.

Especially as you could almost buy eriksen for that sort of dosh ::::: LOL
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#31 User is offline   ChrisPienaar 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 14:29

Spare a moment to think of us in Gibraltar. We have been royally shafted by this whole Brexit debacle. We have been forced to leave the EU with the UK even though we had something like a 95% remain vote and now we are some bargaining chip to be used by Spain, the EU and the UK. The big problem is that we relied on the EU a lot and we probably won't get the backing we need from the UK either. We are only 30,000 people so when it comes down to it if Spain says they want something to do with Gibraltar or no deal (or worse deal) then the UK will probably take it.

I can see why a lot of you are frustrated with the EU because there are a lot of negatives but there are also loads of positives that have come from it. I'm not going to start a debate on the positives and negatives or the history of the EU, just that it is neither perfect nor is it all doom and gloom. It might have been an idea to sound out if other countries were interested in dissolving the EU or whatever but its one h*ll of a leap of faith to be the first and possibly only ones to leave. We will see how this pans out short and long term but the near future is a scary place full of uncertainty at the moment.
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#32 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 14:54

View PostChrisPienaar, on 14 January 2019 - 14:29, said:

Spare a moment to think of us in Gibraltar. We have been royally shafted by this whole Brexit debacle. We have been forced to leave the EU with the UK even though we had something like a 95% remain vote and now we are some bargaining chip to be used by Spain, the EU and the UK. The big problem is that we relied on the EU a lot and we probably won't get the backing we need from the UK either. We are only 30,000 people so when it comes down to it if Spain says they want something to do with Gibraltar or no deal (or worse deal) then the UK will probably take it.

I can see why a lot of you are frustrated with the EU because there are a lot of negatives but there are also loads of positives that have come from it. I'm not going to start a debate on the positives and negatives or the history of the EU, just that it is neither perfect nor is it all doom and gloom. It might have been an idea to sound out if other countries were interested in dissolving the EU or whatever but its one h*ll of a leap of faith to be the first and possibly only ones to leave. We will see how this pans out short and long term but the near future is a scary place full of uncertainty at the moment.



I am not a supporter of mays deal at all ! in fact it is absolute rubbish and i think spain has used some of it veto power to shaft you guys.

The eu is a corrupt organisation that we didnt join all those years ago ! we joined the common market to trade with them ! not to take on their laws and have our courts decisions overruled by the european court of justice.

What i am annoyed at is tory rebels trying to negate our negotiating position of a no deal which i think we need in these negotiations.

Our own people have weakened our bargaining status .

Now the eu know we must have a deal they will be ruthless and this is what remainers havent considered but i guess the peoples vote of 2016 doesnt mean much to these selfish self seeking (we know best) minority...==== Minority because they lost the vote and wont accept it.
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#33 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 15:01

By the way the eu continues to punish the uk for daring to want to leave their corrupt club.

Subsidies / aid for the uk via the eu since the 2016 referendum result has been cut by 20 %.

This is our fisheries and farming etc etc.

While french and german aid has been increased by the same amount.

Uk tax payers hard earned money has gone into aiding foreign interests.

Laughable.

.............and people want to stay in this club ?
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#34 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 15:48

View PostChrisPienaar, on 14 January 2019 - 14:29, said:

Spare a moment to think of us in Gibraltar. We have been royally shafted by this whole Brexit debacle. We have been forced to leave the EU with the UK even though we had something like a 95% remain vote and now we are some bargaining chip to be used by Spain, the EU and the UK. The big problem is that we relied on the EU a lot and we probably won't get the backing we need from the UK either. We are only 30,000 people so when it comes down to it if Spain says they want something to do with Gibraltar or no deal (or worse deal) then the UK will probably take it.

I can see why a lot of you are frustrated with the EU because there are a lot of negatives but there are also loads of positives that have come from it. I'm not going to start a debate on the positives and negatives or the history of the EU, just that it is neither perfect nor is it all doom and gloom. It might have been an idea to sound out if other countries were interested in dissolving the EU or whatever but its one h*ll of a leap of faith to be the first and possibly only ones to leave. We will see how this pans out short and long term but the near future is a scary place full of uncertainty at the moment.


Chris, believe me, I am sparing more than a moment of thought for all UK and EU citizens who find themselves either in Gib, NI or resident on 'the wrong side of the fence'. To me the world order has changed and to be part of an imperfect EU is better than standing alone in a world that is, quite frankly, an alarming place. Beagle mentioned the winning of two world wars earlier - wars that cost hundreds of thousands of British lives. But we fought alongside many European brothers and sisters in both of them, and they too paid the price. We did not win either war through bulldog spirit alone, but with the help of other nations. Part of the positive nature of the EU is to keep the peace in Europe (Balkan conflict apart). With instability in the US and a confident Russia and China, the U.K. standing alone (whether that be trade or moral support) is not a sensible option.

This nationalistic stance for why Brexit is a good thing - to, in effect, give Britain back to the British - is flawed. Most of the white English come from Denmark and Germany, those further north have Scandanavian roots, with the West Country sprinkled with Celtic blood from along the western seaboard of mainland Europe. We might be an island, but we are genetically populated from mainland Europe.
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#35 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 15:49

View PostBroadway Beagle, on 14 January 2019 - 15:01, said:

By the way the eu continues to punish the uk for daring to want to leave their corrupt club.

Subsidies / aid for the uk via the eu since the 2016 referendum result has been cut by 20 %.

This is our fisheries and farming etc etc.

While french and german aid has been increased by the same amount.

Uk tax payers hard earned money has gone into aiding foreign interests.

Laughable.

.............and people want to stay in this club ?


Beagle, please don't take this the wrong way, but many of the facts and figures that you are stating are incorrect. If you are purely using The Daily Mail and The Sun for your info then you are being fed inaccuracies. There are plenty of independent news outlets to get unbiased reporting on all things Brexit.
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#36 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 16:38

This is from the 'New Satesman' regarding our annual payment into the EU

Throughout the EU referendum campaign, the constant chatter was about how much our membership costs the UK (it’s not £350m a week, but enough red buses and red tops said it was to make it seep into our consciousness).

What didn’t receive so much air time was how much money we get from the European Union. Because it really does pay for a lot of our stuff. Britain commits £18bn to the EU budget every year. Of this amount, London receives a rebate of £5bn, and £6bn goes to the rest of the UK for EU-funded projects (funding that can be matched by private investment) and farm subsidies.

There are EU spending projects (often called “structural funds”) for vital areas, including farming, science, and culture. Key examples are the EU farming subsidies, which account for 50 per cent of British farm incomes (roughly £2.5-3bn a year, depending on the exchange rate), and development projects in poorer areas – such as Cornwall, west Wales, and parts of the northeast – which receive an outsized amount of EU funding
.
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#37 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 16:47

Beagle, have a look/read/watch Channel Four, Guardian, Independent and Al Jazeera. Just give them a go to see what a balanced reporting of the situation is like. I'm not expecting it to change your mind, but these outlets have no hidden agenda as far as I know.
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#38 User is offline   Broadway Beagle 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 17:36

View PostArmchairSpurs, on 14 January 2019 - 16:47, said:

Beagle, have a look/read/watch Channel Four, Guardian, Independent and Al Jazeera. Just give them a go to see what a balanced reporting of the situation is like. I'm not expecting it to change your mind, but these outlets have no hidden agenda as far as I know.


No problems armchair ! i do look at various sources everyday regarding brexit.

Some are for and against ! as you mention the sun,mail,express advocate brexit.

Honestly i do read every available article but have to admit i dont read anything from al jazeera for no particular reason.

I think with me the bottom line is i distrust barnier because he originally said (and i saw the interview) that the british are about to learn what brexit is all about.

They (the EU) have made it such a traumatic experience to leave that it becomes distasteful.

Macron has stated later negotiations (if this may rubbish deal gets through) will involve the french and other nations having continued access to the uks rich fishing waters.
The spanish will use a veto if they cant get their way on gibraltar.

The list goes on but finally they refuse to make promises on paper that they wont hold the uk to ransom over the irish problem.

Its also unacceptable that in mays agreement the eu decides when we can leave.

If they have nothing to hide then why make all these proviso,s.?

Regarding the 20 tory rebels siding with labour ! to me a "NO DEAL" is a negotiating lever with the eu and they have sought to take it out of the equation.

Only 2 of these rebels constituentcies voted in favour of remain ! the rest were all in favour of leaving so they are not representing what their constituents voted for ! i sincerely hope they will be bombed out their seats in the next general election.

Have to ask why do you think we have to ignore the referendum result ?
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#39 User is offline   ArmchairSpurs 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 18:01

It's quite simple why the EU are playing hard ball.

It is us that want to leave. It's like we are giving notice to a gym that we are leaving, but still want access to the swimming pool and treadmills. The gym will say no. As will the EU at our demands. The EU also want to look after their members interests, so if they give the UK concessions then our payback will be things like giving the EU fishing rights - that only makes sense. Plus, they don't want the first country to leave the EU to walk away with all kinds of goodies, otherwise any other country thinking about it will go for it as well. Again, the EU are making sure that anyone that leaves them leaves with what they came in with - little or nothing.

May's deal is awful. No deal Brexit even worse. This is why you have disorder and unprecedented manoevering within parliament.

If you voted for a pat on the back, but were then told that you were going to receive a punch in the face, you'd want a rethink. This is why many who voted to leave want to change their minds. I know you are not one of them, but a considerable number do.
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#40 User is offline   Yidio Yidio 

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Posted 14 January 2019 - 18:19

I'm not sure that a claim about Al Jazhera not having an agenda is any different to a claim that the BBC have one. Certainly been accused of bias in the past.


The fact that those claims of bias have been somewhat appeased suggests they may well have existed in the first place,
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