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Re : Closed Thread. General chat

#1 User is offline   Easy Going Spurs Fan 

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 14:20

I thought maybe old spurs thread re: george floyd should have been put in general chat.

While we dont have football we do have controversial politics right now throughout the world and surely general chat invites many subjects to be debated ?

Why have that section there if not to be used ? maybe admin should remove it ?

For instance i personally dont believe in the present trend of trying to erase history through the removal of statues just because a minority see it as distasteful.

Historical things have happened and the human race has progressed and see the past for what it is !

A period of time that we have learned not to go back to.

The worst thing is that i cant really voice a neutral opinion on all this .
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#2 User is offline   tomtom 

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 14:23

Moved to general chat as nothing to do with Spurs at all.

Do you think statues are really there to teach about history? or are they erected to honour someone?

If they're for history should we have a Hitler statue? he's a big part of history. Why did they remove Jimmy Savile statues? He did a lot of philanthropy, should they have kept the statues?
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Posted 18 June 2020 - 14:31

View Posttomtom, on 18 June 2020 - 14:23, said:



If they're for history should we have a Hitler statue? he's a big part of history. Why did they remove Jimmy Savile statues? He did a lot of philanthropy, should they have kept the statues?


Sorry i thought i had put this up in General chat ! my error .

Glad you mentioned hitler because there,s often tv channels that feature the rise of the third reich ! should we remove that tv channel because it might offend people of certain origins or do we view it as part of history ?

I dont think jimmy saville in his category as being a pervert and living a complete lie has anything to do with the history of mankind & quite rightly in this enlightened era he was a creep that abused his position and was found out and should never have had a statue erected in his honour.


However we are talking about hundreds of years ago and you cant just erase the past as if it didnt happen because it did , & in those particular times what those people did wasnt deemed as wrong ! but it is now by modern day mankind & modern day standards but still remains lessons in our history to be learned from.

The romans had slaves from all over the world but i dont see italians tearing down their past history.

The danes constantly attacked britain, r*ped & pillaged !------slaughtered monks in their monestries for church treasure but they are not condemned for not knowing any better.

You may as well scour the 4 corners of the planet and remove anything to do with mass murderers like genguis khan, julius caeser, alexander the great etc etc the list goes on.
We all find it distasteful but we dont go out and riot because of it.

Its unacceptable.

While i couldnt give a s*** about the person who a statue is erected for i see it being really pathetic to go tearing them down and leave the damage for others to sort out (like the tax payer)

In my view get a petition up and ask certain councils for the removal of offending statues.

Dont go around rioting as a pathetic excuse to smash things up.

These people are lucky we dont have a trump in charge in this country because they would have been tear gassed and tasered, & possibly smashed with batons.

You get more respect to go about things peacefully and lawfully ! not mob riot mentality.
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#4 User is offline   tomtom 

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 16:31

how is removing a statue erasing the past? No one is asking for them to stop showing documentaries on any of the people they're making statues about. Is there a Genghis Khan

How would you feel about a Hitler statue being raised in your hometown? Or Stalin?

It's a common argument being made by people who had never heard of most of the people whose statues are being removed that it's "erasing history". I don't really get why you'd want to defend some of these statues from being taken down, many caused the deaths of 10,000s of people. Stick a statue in a museum. Write books about them. Make documentaries. But naming streets and having big memorials in town centres men who profited from death and evil doesn't sit right with me.

It's also a false equivalence to talk about ancient slave owners vs ones whose actions can be traced directly to inequality that people experience today. It's a flawed argument grounded in a lack of understanding of the socioeconomic impact of modern slavery and the knock on effects of it had on generations that followed.
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#5 User is offline   Easy Going Spurs Fan 

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 17:03

View Posttomtom, on 18 June 2020 - 16:31, said:

how is removing a statue erasing the past? No one is asking for them to stop showing documentaries on any of the people they're making statues about. Is there a Genghis Khan

How would you feel about a Hitler statue being raised in your hometown? Or Stalin?

It's a common argument being made by people who had never heard of most of the people whose statues are being removed that it's "erasing history". I don't really get why you'd want to defend some of these statues from being taken down, many caused the deaths of 10,000s of people. Stick a statue in a museum. Write books about them. Make documentaries. But naming streets and having big memorials in town centres men who profited from death and evil doesn't sit right with me.

It's also a false equivalence to talk about ancient slave owners vs ones whose actions can be traced directly to inequality that people experience today. It's a flawed argument grounded in a lack of understanding of the socioeconomic impact of modern slavery and the knock on effects of it had on generations that followed.



Why wasnt this happening before the george floyd killing ? why didnt all these people who found these statue's offensive go on the rampage before he was murdered ?
Why wasnt all this feeling of inequality brought to the surface earlier ?

If they want the statues removed then do it lawfully not leave other people to clear up their mess after them.

If you want inequality from the past that directly affects people now then contemplate that america was stolen from the native indians and australia from the aborigines.

No one makes a fuss about that but a few offending statues is big news.

Amazing.
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#6 User is offline   tomtom 

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Posted 18 June 2020 - 21:30

There's plenty talking about the aborigines and native Americans mate. They've formed a large part of the marches in Australia as aborigines are more likely to die in police custody and they have their own George Floyd. It's why the image of him dying has resonated with so many minorities in different countriee as they all have their own examples. Ask someone in Australia who is paying attention. They've had over 400 aborigine deaths in police custody and zero convictions of officers involved and many on the marches there are doing so for this reason.

One banner I saw in the US said "there can never be justice on stolen land". N

I think you're just looking in the wrong places.
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#7 User is offline   Easy Going Spurs Fan 

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Posted 19 June 2020 - 03:15

As i said its part of the history of man kind and very brutal the further you go back in time but we supposedly know better now.

For what its worth edward colston was born in the 1600s ! the same period in time when witches were tortured and burnt at the stake.

Those people saw nothing wrong in what they were doing.

We have come a long way since then and know better.

You can rip down statues but you wont erase the brutal history of human beings toward one another.

We live in a very tolerant country but can you imagine what putin would have done to that rioting crowd ? or the north korean leader ? or china for that matter.

Let councils ask their communities if they want such and such a statue taken down and then go through the correct procedures.

Mob violence isnt the answer because it attracts retaliation by other radical opposing factions.

Personally i suspect there were more sinister motives behind those riots but thats my end on the subject.
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Posted 19 June 2020 - 05:08

View Posttomtom, on 18 June 2020 - 16:31, said:

Is there a Genghis Khan




Sorry i forgot you asked this !

Yep there is a Genghis Khan Equestrian Statue. obviously it depicts the great warlord on horseback.

Should we take that down as obnoxious to our very modern outlook or do we accept it as history.?

Cheers.
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#9 User is offline   tomtom 

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Posted 19 June 2020 - 14:09

View PostEasy Going Spurs Fan, on 19 June 2020 - 05:08, said:

Sorry i forgot you asked this !

Yep there is a Genghis Khan Equestrian Statue. obviously it depicts the great warlord on horseback.

Cheers.

didn't finish writing that question and wasn't what I was going to ask. Nevermind.

I'm going to step out of this conversation as you seem fairly set in your ways of wanting statues of slavers even if they upset a lot of people and determined to hammer home the false equivalences of removing things from history rather than just stopping celebrating men who committed heinous acts. Maybe Spurs should have a statue of Sol Campbell outside the stadium because it's part of our history, or maybe there would be uproar as we all know statues are for heroes not villains.
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#10 User is offline   Easy Going Spurs Fan 

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Posted 19 June 2020 - 15:42

View Posttomtom, on 19 June 2020 - 14:09, said:

didn't finish writing that question and wasn't what I was going to ask. Nevermind.

I'm going to step out of this conversation as you seem fairly set in your ways of wanting statues of slavers even if they upset a lot of people and determined to hammer home the false equivalences of removing things from history rather than just stopping celebrating men who committed heinous acts. Maybe Spurs should have a statue of Sol Campbell outside the stadium because it's part of our history, or maybe there would be uproar as we all know statues are for heroes not villains.



I stepped out a while back but find it hard why you condone unlawful acts of violence against inanimate objects because they represent the checkered past of mankind?

I am saying do things lawfully.......ask people........ask councils....... dont just take it into your own hands to make decisions on the peoples behalf.........to smash down things you dont like ?

You see its easy to get offended . This attitude offends me.

Next they will be smashing down my front door because they dont like the colour i painted it.
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